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Conductor
1st Class Member
USA
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 Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 10:51:53
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Last week I decided to finally put down the sculpty and get back to building some rolling stock for the OR&L.
Jeff Livingston sent me some beautiful drawings of the observation car number 64,,, according to my Grandmother this was the car my Grandfather was born on.
My plan is to use this partially completed project I bought from someone on the eBay who was using Plans 58 a,b,c from the Oct 2002 issue of Garden Railways.
All the parts were cut, and the trucks were finished, all it needed was assembling, and some mods to look more like OR&L cars.
The kit included all the parts for the Coach, a combine, and a bagage car. I decided to turn the combine into #64 and build the coach as cut with just a couple of OR&L mods.
I started on the coach Sunday. The original plans are for 26' cars. Fortunately the kits creator changed those dimensions to 36' cars which is the correct size for the OR&L 64 from the plans Jeff sent me and from what I can measure from Photos in "Next Stop Honolulu" it is close to the other coaches in a consist that 64 was a part of.
I ran into a couple of problems on the dry run assembly which are kind of ambiguous on the plans that lack a top elevation of the body substructure.
The first was the joining of the sides to the ends. There is a 3/4 view of the body substructure assembled and the joints are hidden by the over lapping ends. Normally (speaking from my cabinet maker and carpenter days) I would butt the edge of one piece to the inside face of the other. In places where the material is thin, I would fir out the inside face so there was more substantial material to nail to, or in this case glue to.
As I laid the parts on the already cut decking, it appeared that the ends and the sides were either not meant to be joined, or the deck was cut incorrectly. I checked the dimensions next to the drawing and found that the former was true. Apparently both ends and sides were meant to join on a 3/16 square piece of basswood post running the length of the ends. I'm not sure if this is typical of car construction, but it is not a good mechanical joint, so, not thinking the engineering aspect through completely, I cut the notches back on the decking so that the ends butt into the inside of the sides. then I added a stick frame to build out the ends to their original position using the 3/16 posts for studs.
This worked out nicely since one of the details the OR&L cars have that the plans did not is a 1/4 round corner. I took some sand paper and roughed in the round over. I'll make a round over sanding block the right dimension and finish it out today.
I was wondering if plan #58 represents the typical type of construction for model cars? I've seen the real cars broken down laying on sidings before and they seem to be built using Balloon framing techniques with mortice and tendon and blind and throgh dovetails. These traditional joints are mechanically sound, the butt joint is not especially considering that the structure is mobile and rocking back and forth. But that type of joinery in a scale model is pretty hard to do (I tried it once on a ship model).
Has anyone out there built cars using these plans before? What was your experience with the walls joined in the manner described in the plan 58? I'm a reading the plans wrong, or missing a page that describes the joining better?
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Engineer
1st Class Member
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Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 11:18:37
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quote:
observation car number 64, according to my Grandmother this was the car my Grandfather was born on.
Richard, that is just too cool! Is that the one that's still running at the museum? It's a gorgeous car and will make a spectacular model, as well as being a family heirloom.
The method in plan 58 is indeed typical. The 1888 Car Builder's Dictionary, for example, does have top plans and shows 6" quarter-round posts at each corner. Since they're thick posts, there's plenty of surface for the walls to connect to. I can't tell from any of the drawings in that book what kind lf joints were used, but in 1:20, I should think that a butt joint with yellow glue would hold up fine. The wood will probably splinter before the yellow glue lets go (I've had that happen on some of my cars). I think you'll be fine with 1/4" square stock at the corners, sanded round on the outer corner.
You don't really want to frame the whole thing, do you? You'll need a laser cutter to do it, because the rafters on a clerestory roof are fiendishly complicated. |
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Conductor
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 14:35:05
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Yep, the same, but I'm starting with a regular coach firts. Number 2 which is still being restored if I recall.
I'd have to say that they posts would need to be joined to the top plate and bottom substructure with either a mortice and tennon type joint or metal fastners and not just nails. I structure like that couldn't be rocked back and forth otherwise.
Yeah, that yellow glue sure is strong, but my question is how do you align pieces that small. The sides and ends are like 1/16" thick, while there maybe enough glue surface it would be a pain keeping them aligned or clamping them up whle the glue sets.
Do you have an exmaple of the type of jig you would build to hold those pieces togehter? I'm just curious , I've decided that on the next car I'm going to make either a set of paper or styrene angle irons and clamp and glue them to the sides and ends and then just clue the post in the resulting notch with some super glue.
You've inspired me to frame #64 and build it completely from scratch, using what I have learned from the cars I'm building now to finish the celestial and the under carriage and trucks.
I'd have to hack the combo car to make a convincing version of 64 anyway. I'll just leave it as is since OR&L had cars similar to this.
OH! and one last questions. This kit scales out to be just about 8' wide from the outside of one finished side the outside of the other. The drawings show #64 to be 8'2" about two inches more. I'm wondering if that outside dimension includes the rake for the roof?
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Edited by - on 25 Sep 2007 14:46:41 |
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Engineer
1st Class Member
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Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 17:37:44
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To jig this one, here's one method: I would lay out the side panels and the corner posts on a piece of plate glass (to keep it all perfectly flat) and then use mini clamps to hold them while the glue dries. Yellow glue sets up in about 10 minutes, and then you can do the other side.
One they have hardened well, then stand one side and one end on edge and stick a machinist's square (or something you know to be square) inside the corner and clamp it all up again with the mini clamps, clothespins, rubber bands or whatever you have that will grab things in the right places. Do this for the other side/end set.
Finally, glue up the car sides, using the same clamps (squares should be irrelevant at this point. I have built a lot of boxcars and cabs this way and the results are good - sturdy and square.
Now, if the sides overlap the side frames of the car but the ends are shorter (likely on a passenger car), this won't work because you can't stand the sides up and square them. In this case, I would glue one side to the side frame, then when it's set up, glue the other side while aligning them with a square. Attach the corner posts to the end panels, then glue the ends on. You can clamp this kind of arrangement with rubber bands (on a long car, loop two or three together, then open up the ends to go around the ends of the car).
If all this doesn't look like it's going to work because the sides are too thin, then glue some simple framing onto the backside of the side and end panels, to give it a better gluing surface. You can then finish out the interior with paneling over the framing and the sides will come out about scale thickness.
I don't know about the width. Two inches only scales out to 3/32", so if you choose to ignore it, you're the only one that will know there was even a question about it. Unless someone shows up with a better plan and a caliper, they'll never know.
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Conductor
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 20:04:54
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Vance,
Thanks. Here's where I am so far.
This shows a typical OR&L roof end. The roof ends are straight on the kit. The kit also came without lighted ends, which I added.
This top view shows the modifcation I made to the deck. I should have talked to you first about this, because as you can see the ends are too thick. I won't make that mistake on the rest of the cars.
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Conductor
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 01 Oct 2007 : 13:45:58
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I've really departed from the original kit and plans. I've redesigned the roof constuction, cut the window mulions out because they were too thick, and employed some techniques I learned building ship models.
As you can see from the image above I have decided to use strip wood (hot bent balsa) for the curved end of the celestial. I have also decided against using the bulky crossmember pictured below in favor of thinner sturdy white cedar curved ribbing also pictured above. I also got rid of the ridge beam that fit in those slots in the center.
The piece above came with the kit, but the radius of the curve was not tight enough or high enough, and I didn't like the bulkyness of it. I broke down and got in to my dwindling supply of white cedar.
close up of the roof end and celestial. I hot bent those planks the same as if I was building a model ship. Below is
Gluing up the roof planks is going very slow. White cedar is an excellent wood for models, its grain is dense and consistent, but it is somewhat hard so using straight pins to hold down the planks temporarly is out of the question. Plenty of close pins and small plastic clamps work nicely though.
The finished roof, still needs some sanding and filling. before I prepare it for paper.
I thought I could get away with 4 ribs in the celestial, but the planks are too loose so I'm going to cut up some additional ribbing today and stiffen that up before I move on to the siding.
I've decided to do the windows as a single piece that can be inserted into the rough opening I left after cutting the mulions out of the kit sides. I have deviated so far from the original kit, I'm not going to even refer to it as a kit anymore.
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Edited by - on 01 Oct 2007 13:47:55 |
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Foreman
1st Class Member
Norway
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Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 04:25:14
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Richard,
your model is wonderful! The way you chose to make the ends of the clerestory (no, I don't know how to spell it) is spot on for the full-size construction technique. How did you geet the gaps between the individual bent boards so tight? Did you bevel of the edges of the boards?
If you continue changing the kit in this way, your'e going to end up in the Master Car Builder category, together with a few well-known names on this forum...
Can't wait to see it finished,
Thanks,
André,
Norway |
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Conductor
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 09:36:42
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Richard,
I think you would have been better off to stick with the plans. If you will send this first try to me, I will dispose of it so you will no longer have to look at it.
Seriously, though, that is looking beautiful! You are barking right up my alley. I can't tell you how much I look forward to the details of your work. I fully intend to start scratch building similar cars, as soon as I finish the little project I started - residing the house.
If you have any other details you want to share on you construction, please don't hold back. I can use all of the helpful hints possible. I had not heard of using white cedar. I'll have to try that.
Thanks again!
Matt |
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Conductor
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 11:16:18
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Andre,
Thanks, yes, I beveled the inside, but very sloppy because I knew it wouldn't be seen. Instead of bending to a single pattern, I bent to the framing of the car and numbered each piece as I went along. After getting the initial wet hot bend close, I beveled the inside edges and tail end of the strips. Then I laid them out and dry hot bent them to conform snuggly to the ends and just a hair above the middle rib of the celestial (I don't know how its spelled either). I did this because it is my experience that after the humidity in the wood balances itself, the wood will move a little back into its original position. Once I have them all dry fitted to the framing and fitting snuggly, I cut the inside ends o.c. of the rib. Note that the both the tail ends and inside ends are not sqaure, but angled. There were 10 strips for each end.
Matt,
This one hung around my house for over a year, and perhaps two while I worked on Lanakila, and then figures. If I hadn't stumbled across that Carter Brothers Masterclass article, it probably would have laid around another year or two.
My only regret about buying this kit, is that isn't as good as the kits featured in the Masterclass article. But then again if it was as good as those kits, I wouldn't have tried to make it look like the original equipment that ran on the OR&L.
Here is a link to the image of the coach I am trying to build. Its hi res or I would put it up on this thread. I needed a hi res image to share with Stan Cedarleaf the guy who's making the decals for it and a couple other of my projects.
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/rkapuaala/car1hires.jpg
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Foreman
1st Class Member
Norway
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Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 11:37:40
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Richard, thanks for answering.
To see if I understand correctly, the inside ends (toward the centre of the car) are bevelled off, making a scarf joint with the ends of the long boards covering the long centre section of the clerestory roof? (And o.c. means over the center of the rib?)
Thanks again, beautiful work,
Regards,
André,
Norway |
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Conductor
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 12:35:16
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Andre,
Yes but both ends are actually compound miter joints. The center joint is actually a compound scarf joint.The tails are angled and mitered so that they fit the curve of the lower roof and the centers are angeled and mitered so that they rest squarely on the rib. This is because all 10 peaces fan out very slightly once they are joined. After joining I take a very small hand plan and a file and trim the excess to run straight and plum.
My communications skills are somewhat laking in this area since I forget a lot of the terminolgy to explain the geometry. The masterclas article shows a kerfing technique that might provide a better understanding of the geometry than I have given here. They aren't too dis-similiar. The angle of the roof only changes the angle of the tail ends, and instead using a calculator to figure out those angles I scribed them, so it was sort of a cut as you go process. If I was working on a full scale version I would of course figure out those angles make the rough cuts and then scribe it in because the time involved just scribing in the joint would exceed the time involved engineering. This small scale, using balsa planking, its just quicker to scribe.
and
Yes, o.c. means on center of the ribs. I hope I am explaining it clearly enough. As I said, my communications skills are a little laking  |
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Foreman
1st Class Member
Norway
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Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 12:58:11
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Your communication skills are fine, it's my understanding of geometry that needs some work. I don't understand what you mean about the 10 pieces fanning out, and the center joints being angled and mitered so that they rest squarely on the rib. And I wish I new how to lay out a roof like this in full size, that would teach me something about buildind the miniature roof. (I'm capable of building a clerestory roof for a model in a simplified way, like for instance in the MasterClass, however your method seems so very close to the real thing that it holds a special attraction for me). If you can add some comments to clarify my obtuse muddled thoughts it would be great.
Thanks,
André,
Norway
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Edited by - on 02 Oct 2007 12:59:09 |
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Conductor
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 16:11:12
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Andre,
I'm not sure I have the where with all to explain whats going on with this type of construction. So I am going to create a 3D model and let you have a look at it. You will need to find a download of blaxxun interactives vrml browser. Let me know if you have trouble finding. I can also export this to dxf, obj, or stl if you are familar with those formats. I'm thinking that if you can see this in 3D it might make better sense.
Wait for my next post, it will have a link. |
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Conductor
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 18:02:55
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Andre,
Once you install blaxxun browser then click on this link.
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/rkapuaala/celestialroof3d.wrl
What you are looking at is really sloppy job, but its close enough for an example. This is the roof and the celestial done using approximately the same number of poly gones as planks. On the celestial you will see two green polys at the top and 1 orange in the center.
Note that the orange polygon is rectangular while the other green ones are more like parallelagrams (remember a rectangles corners form a right angle while a parallelagram does not). Below the greeen poly's are some gray (or white depending on your monitor) polygons. They are also paralleograms, and below the gray are blue polys that like wise are not rectangles.
The center polygons are orange, brown and blue and are all rectangles.
If these were a wooden planks, regardless of length, width or thickness you could not force them to bend in the manner that the green,gray and blue polygons do without cutting them down to the same dimensions as the green, the gray and the blue polys on this model.
Your only choice (if you wish to use a single piece) is to skew the planks a little out of the normal plane of the bend and this skewing causes them to fan out a little at the bottom.
As for the compound miters. A scarf joint is basically just a miter joint but instead of forming a corner it extends a flat board in a way that equal amounts of wood have support at the same point and the joint stays better hidden. A compound miter is a joint that angled in two planes. It is frequently used in hip rafters. Referring to the 3d model you will note that the blue polygons on the sides of the celestial form and angle. as they join the lower roof. If they had thickness, they would be mittered (or beveled) as well on their bottoms to fit snuggle to the lower roof. Referring to the model again. Where the green polys are joined by the straight portion of the celestial roof. That is also slightly angled. another bevel is cut in on that plank facing up so that it scarfs into the straight plank.
I think as you look at the model you will also see why, I say that my technique is basically the same as the master class technique. Where they kerf cut the plastic to form the necessary curve in the flat material, I skew it and plane off the excess.
Hope that helps more than confuses you. Probably doesn't help that I get confused just trying to explain it |
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Foreman
1st Class Member
Norway
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Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 07:15:39
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Wow, Richard, it's very nice of you to put so much effort into explaining this to me. Trouble is, my Internet connection is on a work computer, I'm not allowed to download browsers and such. However, I have the cheapy "Emachineshop" sort-of-Cad program, maybe this will let me view a .dxf file of your 3D simulation?
Thank you very much for taking all that trouble, I appreciate it.
Regards,
André,
Norway |
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Conductor
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 10:36:01
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Andre,
What version of cad are you running? I might be able to convert to cad for you, but I'm not sure you are going to see more than a wire frame in the older versions of cad, and that might be more confusing than helpful. |
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